Trunk or Treat Photos
Thanks again to Amber and Geoff for pulling off this event and for Gillian and her excellent team at The Preschool for their hard work and for providing the train and horse rides.
Labels: King of Peace event
Irenic. The word means peaceful. This web log (or blog) exists to create an ongoing, and hopefully peaceful, series of comments on the life of King of Peace Episcopal Church. This is not a closed community. You are highly encouraged to comment on any post or to send your own posts.
Labels: King of Peace event
We made a mistake. What we should have done when people crossed the line of faith and became Christians, we should have started telling people and teaching people that they have to take responsibility to become ‘self-feeders.’ We should have gotten people, taught people, how to read their Bible between service, how to do the spiritual practices much more aggressively on their own.I know it can be trendy to bash mega churches, but I visited Willow Creek in 1999, attending worship while there for a conference on church planting. While I didn't care to copy their church, I did like the way they were careful about thinking through what they did and why. Obviously that continues. Now the founding pastor is concerned that created a multi-million dollar Christian Education program that
did not equate into an increase in members capacity to love God more deeply or to love their neighbor in any significant way.At least I agree with their bottom line. The thing for a church to ask is whether people are more involved in loving God and loving their neighbors as themselves than they were before coming in contact with the church (unlike the parody magazine cover to the right). In other words, are those who attend more likely to live out Jesus' teachings than not. Obviously, there will be an immense amount of indiviual differences. But what is the trend within a church?
Labels: discipleship
At 10/31/2007 7:30 AM, said…
My idea of being a Christian and being like Jesus is one in the same. Prayer, worship and Bible studies are great foundations to personal growth in Christianity.
Where I see churches falling short is teaching people how to take these disciplines beyond the walls of the church and put them into practice to where it becomes a way of life, like Jesus.
A church needs to be open to individual's desires to serve others and provide opportunity and guidance to do so. King of Peace does just that, and it is the reason I chose this church. It was seeing Father Frank and many of the members out there doing the work of Jesus that drew me to the church in the first place.
I had a strong foundation in my other church and was very disciplined in the religion, but I was trapped inside. I became extrememly frustrated not knowing how to take my desire to serve others beyond the capacity of that church. The ministries offered to us were in service to the church only. I knew what I wanted to do, but had no support from the church leaders.
At 10/31/2007 11:10 AM, said…
Because religion and science are the two most powerful forces in the world today, including especially the United States. If religion and science could be united on the common ground of biological conservation, the problem would soon be solved. If there is any moral precept shared by people of all beliefs, it is that we owe ourselves and future generations a beautiful, rich, and healthful environment.The full text is here Letter to a Southern Baptist Minister. In the letter, he lays on the line his own secular humanist beliefs, while making room for joining with those Christians who want to find common cause, particularly the most literal interpretors of scripture.
Pastor, we need your help. The Creation—living Nature—is in deep trouble. Scientists estimate that if habitat conversion and other destructive human activities continue at their present rates, half the species of plants and animals on Earth could be either gone or at least fated for early extinction by the end of the century. A full quarter will drop to this level during the next half century as a result of climate change alone. The ongoing extinction rate is calculated in the most conservative estimates to be about a hundred times above that prevailing before humans appeared on Earth, and it is expected to rise to at least a thousand times greater or more in the next few decades. If this rise continues unabated, the cost to humanity, in wealth, environmental security, and quality of life, will be catastrophic.Separate from issues of whether global warming is good science or bad, anyone can see that we are raping portions of the earth rather than caring for them. The earth is resilient and may well recover, but it could do so with a billion or so less humans on board. If this happens, it may not be God's judgment so much as God's built-in corrective for us not following the command to care for the gift of creation we have been given.
The biblical writers have always maintained that the world is not a permanent entity as we know it; it can change; is likely to change; for better, or for much worse.If our own free will leads us to saw off the limb on which we stand, we will not have God to blame. Perhaps this is yet another implication of this past Sunday's sermon When Fires Rage.
Labels: Science and religion
At 10/30/2007 7:27 AM, said…
My family lives out in Mush Bluff and we are extrememly privileged to have a recycling truck along with our regular garbage collection. I can't believe the amount of plastic one family of four can accumulate in a week! For my family, it far outweighs the amount of paper, glass and cans.
We started recycling 8 years ago and I wish we had done so a long time ago. To think of all we have acumulated that could be going to a landfill makes me sick. And with that said, even though we are lucky to have the recycling truck in our neighborhood, sadly, very few neighbors take advantage of it.
Yes, there are enough Christians in this world who can set a great example and take care of our precious gifts from God. And regardless of our religious convictions, the one thing that all humanity has in common is our earth. It's our home. It's a legacy that we all need to protect for future generations.
If each of us could donate just a little extra time, we could accomplish so much.
Labels: Journey to Wholeness
At 10/29/2007 8:01 AM, said…
At 10/29/2007 8:29 AM, King of Peace said…
Kenny, one of the key questions to ask of any dream is "What do the various people and symbols in the dream mean to me?" You also have to realize that you are the only one in your dreams in that all the persons and symbols arise out of your subconscious. So the question is "What is your inner Sean Hannity trying to tell you?" And I may or may not want to know.
peace,
Frank+
At 10/29/2007 12:31 PM, said…
Labels: King of Peace event
At 10/29/2007 2:08 AM, said…
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At 10/29/2007 8:27 AM, King of Peace said…
Red is the church color for the Holy Spirit, probably due to the tongues of fire over the heads of the apostles on Pentecost. We don't usually color code according to church color, but have done so before for Pentecost and it makes for a festive service. Fun for one service or two a year, but more than a little funky if one had to color code clothes each week. That would have a high creepiness factor. So I would give white and gold a miss for All Saints were I you. But I am not you and will wear liturgically appropriate vestments to the service. :-)
peace,
Frank+
At 10/29/2007 8:39 AM, said…
So, the color red was representing the Holy Spirit on Reformation Sunday as on Pentacost Sunday? I'm really happy that we don't have to wear white on All Saint's Day since we are well past Labor Day!
Northern Girl: Glad to see you like the Dawgs! And, way to go Jags too! So sad for the Dolphins in England though!
Labels: King of Peace event
Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee, standing by himself, was praying thus, `God, I thank you that I am not like other people: thieves, rogues, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I give a tenth of all my income.' But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even look up to heaven, but was beating his breast and saying, `God, be merciful to me, a sinner!' I tell you, this man went down to his home justified rather than the other; for all who exalt themselves will be humbled, but all who humble themselves will be exalted.A few years ago, I preached on this passage, showing how a whole strand of Christian tradition—The Jesus Prayer—came from this story. I wrote:
This prayer of the humbled tax collector forms the basis for The Jesus Prayer—a prayer central to the Orthodox understanding of Christianity. The Orthodox churches, such as Russian Orthodox and Greek Orthodox were separated by political divisions from Christianity in the west for more than 1,000 years. There is within the Orthodox understanding of Christianity vast depths of wisdom which many of us who live West of Constantinople have never experienced. I want to offer this decidedly Orthodox form of prayer—The Jesus Prayer—as a possible new avenue for you in your life of personal prayer....The full text of the sermon is online here: The Jesus Prayer.
For the Orthodox monks who developed and passed down this practice if interior prayer, the goal was nothing more or less than leading one’s own heart into God’s presence. This was not a way to pray for something, but a way to be with God. This form of prayer was never taught to be a quick fix or an easy path. Nicephorous emphasized patience in using the Jesus Prayer. He wrote, “patiently continue with this activity for some time, and a way to the heart will be opened for you without any doubt. We have learned this by experience. If you do this with great desire and attention, the entrance into the heart will bring about a host of virtues: love, joy, peace, long-suffering, humility and others.”
If this all sounds a bit like transcendental meditation or some other iffy new age practice, remember that The Jesus Prayer has been practiced within the Christian Church for more than 1,000 years that we know of by millions of Christians. Those who taught the Jesus Prayer were always careful to note that the content of the prayer is Christ and the experience is not of ourselves, but of a pathway to God.
Labels: Gospel reading, prayer
Labels: religion column
It was formal high Mass, none of that "hi and how are we all doing this morning" chumminess, and the homily only summarized the scripture texts about healing, it didn't turn into an essay on healthcare. Ten voices strong and true in the choir and positioned as they were under the great arch of the chancel, their tender polyphonic Kyrie and Gloria infused the whole building with pure kindness.The full essay from which this excerpted is online at Slate.com here Sunday morning coming down.
The singing was O my God just heartbreakingly good. There were less than 30 of us in the pews, fewer than the names on the prayer list, and to hear "Behold, how good and joyful it is; brethren, to dwell together in unity" sung so eloquently as the priests swung to their tasks was to be present in a moment of extravagant grace that does not depend on numbers or any other measure of success for its meaning, just as the Grand Canyon does not depend on busloads of tourists to be magnificent. Most of our brethren, bless them, are off enjoying brunch or reading the funnies or lifting weights at the gym, and our faithfulness does not make us better people. We simply happened to walk by and see this vast canyon of God's love and stand looking into it....
But here in an old brownstone church at an ancient ceremony, there is a moment of separation from all the griefs of this world. Ten men and women are singing a cappella, "Bless the Lord, O my soul, and all that is within me bless his holy name," and their voices drench us fugitive worshippers kneeling, naked, trembling, needy, in the knowledge of grace, and when we arise and go out into Baltimore, the blessing follows us.
Labels: worship
At 10/25/2007 7:06 AM, said…
There is something to be said for the tranquility of a High Mass. I had a difficult time opening myself up to God's voice last Sunday. It was so loud in the church before the service and during Communion. My conversations with God were once again interrupted by several conversations that could have been held in the entry hall before or after the service.
It seems that reverence in the presence of God has taken a back seat to socializing in the worship area. I've noticed there is silence and there is reverence during the sacrament of Baptism. The Eucharist is a sacrament, too, we receive every week that allows each and every one of us to spend personal and intimate time with the Lord.
Those who are old enough to know better might want to keep our discussions down to a quiet whisper at this time. I love each and every one of you in our congregation and I can't wait experience fellowship with you--in the entry hall. I love God too, and I would appreciate some time with Him without hearing the latest college football scores as I pray.
At 10/25/2007 7:57 PM, said…
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At 10/25/2007 9:28 PM, said…
We thank you gracious God for the gift of fire, fire which enables industry, fire which propels our cars, and fire which keeps us free from winter’s chill. But this day, O God, your gift has again turned dangerous and destructive. Humbly we ask your intervention in our county to help save us from the blowing winds and growing fires that threaten our neighbors. Bring a change in weather to this district, that the winds may drop and the ocean’s moisture may weaken the burning flames. Send helpers to our neighbors who suffer shortness of breath with the smoke in the air. Protect those who fight these fires, and heal those who have suffered burns. Sustain those who have lost homes. Help us each in our own way to be good neighbors to those who need our compassion and care. And at the last, heal us within, that fires of jealousy and the winds of intemperance may die down, that at the last we may dwell in peace and find in you our soothing balm. By the grace of our savior we pray this. Amen.
Labels: news item
At 10/24/2007 9:19 PM, said…
That's so lovely that folks are reaching out to help. I'll make sure the kids bring in their UTO boxes this weekend.
However, I can't help but shake my head at the folks that have been on the news this week who are saying when they can they will rebuild right on the same property...wildfires in California aren't a new thing. Maybe this magnitude is rare, but every year there are wildfires in the fall. I guess though, the same could be said for anywhere you live. We run the risk of hurricanes ever year...will I move? NOPE! :D
At 10/25/2007 6:20 AM, King of Peace said…
More on the Episcopal Relief and Development Response is online here in an updated article ERD to help those displaced by Southern California wildfires; Presiding Bishop calls for prayers.
most people passed on accurate gossip and used it for the common good. They rewarded cooperative behavior even when they themselves weren’t directly affected by the behavior.Then in two rounds, participants were given both hard facts and gossip, knowing that they were being given "facts" and told what others participating in the experiment thought. The researchers found that they were 20% more likely to follow the gossip rather than the facts.
Leviticus 19:16"What everybody knows" and reality are not always connected. Look at the odd article also found in the Times that tells how crime is going down in Japan, but sales are up on bizarre disguises (such as a Coke machine and manhole cover) to protect people from danger Fearing Crime, Japanese Wear the Hiding Place.
"Do not spread slanderous gossip among your people. "Do not try to get ahead at the cost of your neighbor's life, for I am the LORD.
Psalms 41:6
They visit me as if they are my friends, but all the while they gather gossip, and when they leave, they spread it everywhere.
Psalms 69:12
I am the favorite topic of town gossip, and all the drunkards sing about me.
Proverbs 11:13
A gossip goes around revealing secrets, but those who are trustworthy can keep a confidence.
Proverbs 16:28
A troublemaker plants seeds of strife; gossip separates the best of friends.
Proverbs 20:19
A gossip tells secrets, so don't hang around with someone who talks too much.
Proverbs 25:7b-10
Just because you see something, don't be in a hurry to go to court. You might go down before your neighbors in shameful defeat. So discuss the matter with them privately. Don't tell anyone else, or others may accuse you of gossip. Then you will never regain your good reputation.
Proverbs 26:20
Fire goes out for lack of fuel, and quarrels disappear when gossip stops.
Romans 1:29
Their lives became full of every kind of wickedness, sin, greed, hate, envy, murder, fighting, deception, malicious behavior, and gossip.
2 Corinthians 12:20
For I am afraid that when I come to visit you I won't like what I find, and then you won't like my response. I am afraid that I will find quarreling, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfishness, backstabbing, gossip, conceit, and disorderly behavior.
Labels: news item
At 10/23/2007 7:23 AM, said…
It's been a dream of mine to live in Japan as a Coke machine as long as I can remember... :)
Gossip is bad any way you look at it! A little bit of scientific research can go a long way to justify our sins in the name of human nature. I am capable living within the codes of moral conduct without listening to gossip and passing judgment on others. It's just not as fun to simply rely on facts without the juicey stories behind them. That's why God gave us free will(power)!
At 10/23/2007 1:54 PM, said…
I'm another "anonymous." I have to admit. I love gossip. People fascinate me and I love to hear news of their adventures, exploits or even their misadventures. Malicious gossip is another thing altogether. I'm in my 60s and I learned when I was a teenager that my mother divorced my father when she was pregnant with me because she found out he had syphillis. Lately, I have learned, a not-very-nice woman from my hometown found my mother's medical records in a doctor's office and has beenn showing them to everyone. As it happens, I have always told anyone who seemed interested about my father's venereal disease, and I would do so again. But the idea of someone gossiping about something that happened almost 70 years ago, and about my dead mother, is just disgraceful. Also, who cares? But that is just an example of how some folks can do damage with gossip.
At 10/23/2007 2:37 PM, said…
The man in the lab reminds me of the reason I tend to shy away from philosophy most of the time... I'd rather get out and live my life instead of analyze it. I have seen people argue with plain fact just because so-and-so told them different many many times. Maybe it's because we're more apt to trust someone we know than a book, a law, etc. Ever wonder about old-wives-tales, and people that you know who are highly intelligent yet still believe them? One day I'm going to sit d-ray down and go through my list...I just hope his Mom didn't tell him a bunch too. hehehe
At 10/23/2007 3:29 PM, said…
2nd Anonymous,
It's OK to listen to people's own tales and stories of their adventures, exploits and misadventures. Those are factual. People don't tend to gossip about themselves.
Gossip is malicious and usually ends up hurting somebody. Simply asking yourself whether or not a bit of information should be shared will tell you if it is gossip. If it shouldn't be shared, then it's gossip. If it will hurt somebody then it's gossip. If the story is questionable, then it's gossip.
It is really awful that this woman is spreading horrible gossip about your father. Even if it is factual, she's hurting you by doing it. And, you're right--who cares? Your father made a mistake, but it's over now! This just goes to show that gossip is also pointless!
BTW: Denise,
I do agree with you that the scientific researcher saying that gossip is positive to human nature is wasting his time because we all know how we are anyway. We know gossip is wrong, but it's still intriguing and it is still done. I don't get the connection of old wives tales and gossip though. Are you saying that we, as intelligent human beings, should be above gossip and old wives tales?
I disagree, however with your views on philosophy. Our greatest philosophers were given the gift of intricate thought, so that those, who don't like to waste their time in deep thought can go out and simply live. Philosophy does exercise and expand the mind, and some of our greatest thinkers have actually changed the way we are living our lives. I don't see thoughtfulness as a waste of time.
At 10/24/2007 9:40 PM, said…
For the wives tales, I meant to equate wives tales with gossip and to demonstrate how they can possibly be harmful or at the least make a not so "smart" person believe things that aren't true, especially if they're spread by our elders. One example would be my Grandmother told me of her parents swallowing a finger full of Vick's vapor rub everyday, and because of that they lived to be 82 and 90+. But, my great aunt had a piece of her jaw and gums removed from cancer of the mouth (smoking). My grandmother was convinced it was because of the menthol cigarettes she smoked, even though I tried to explain to her that any cigarettes can lead to cancer. It's something she believed and tried to spread to a younger generation. She told me lots of things, never go to bed with your hair wet, it makes you sick, never go outside with your hair wet, that makes you sick too, etc. Lots of things her mother told her that now just seem silly, as silly as break a mirror and you'll have bad luck, etc. Was she ignorant? Maybe, but she is also a master electrician, a certified ceramic instructor, can sew every garment but a brassiere worked from the time she was 13 until she was 58 and raised three children and two grandchildren. So, should a highly intelligent person be above gossip and old wives tales? Maybe. Does that mean we will? Probably not!
At 10/25/2007 11:04 AM, said…
At 10/22/2007 8:08 AM, said…
At 10/22/2007 8:14 AM, King of Peace said…
At 10/22/2007 9:20 AM, said…
At 10/23/2007 9:10 AM, said…
Labels: Diocese of Georgia
At 10/21/2007 2:33 PM, said…
Rev. Rogers is enjoyable, and he does something that just amazes me...He gives a whole wonderful sermon with no notes and doesn't even hold on to the pulpit for support!
The Episcopal Church of the Annunciation is very beautiful, but I'm happy that you're not looking for employment there! I didn't know that individual churches hired their own pastors. In the Roman Catholic Church, you have to take who the Bishop sends, no matter what.
It would be interesting to know what criteria, other than experience, goes in to the hiring process of a pastor. And, what if he/she doesn't work out?
At 10/21/2007 4:40 PM, King of Peace said…
Annunciation, Vidalia is a beautiful church. Their current building was completed about a year before ours.
I also preached from the midle today with no notes. Their pulpit didn't look as comfy as ours and not near as good a feel to hold on to. It was a nice change up to handle a 12 minute sermon from no notes.
A new priest is hired through a process in which a parish works together to create a profile that tells about the church and what they are looking for in a priest. Then that committee usually looks through the Church Deployment Office files of priests looking for a church. So, I have a CDO profile with The Episcopal Church but it is marked that I would not consider a call from another church. Anyway, it is usually listed various places and then the deployment officer for the Diocese works with a church to get a short list of candidates. Then the prospective priests are interviewed, visited where they are and then a few or less are invited to come for a test drive of the new church. At some point, the call committee and the vestry seek the Bishops approval of the person they have selected. This is given in most all cases and the hire is made.
I saw all this having watched the process from afar. As a church planter, I never went through that system, but was hired by the Bishop to start a church.
If the person doesn't work out, there are steps for either an unhappy priest or unhappy congregation to go through. A congregation can't just fire a priest without the Bishop's approval. In theory the Bishop, priest and church board must all agree to disolve the relationship. In practice if either the priest or congregation is unhappy, it usually works out for things to come to an end. That said, Episcopal priests tend to be in place for a decade or more before a move.
peace,
Frank+
At 10/21/2007 7:31 PM, said…
"In a certain city there was a judge who neither feared God nor had respect for people. In that city there was a widow who kept coming to him and saying, `Grant me justice against my opponent.' For a while he refused; but later he said to himself, `Though I have no fear of God and no respect for anyone, yet because this widow keeps bothering me, I will grant her justice, so that she may not wear me out by continually coming.'" And the Lord said, "Listen to what the unjust judge says. And will not God grant justice to his chosen ones who cry to him day and night? Will he delay long in helping them? I tell you, he will quickly grant justice to them. And yet, when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on earth?"It is a way to make a case that Jesus likes a lot in which he argues from the lesser to the greater. So, in this case, if even an unjust judge will do what is right when someone cries out continually, how much more will God grant justice to those of us who are continually crying out about the injustices we see inthis present age.
Labels: Gospel reading
He's built a tent city to handle the overflow. With no air conditioning in the blistering desert heat and just two spare meals a day that cost the county 15 cents each, the conditions there rival the prison for enemy combatants in Guantanamo Bay. The jail seems geared to punishment, rather than rehabilitation.Good Shepherd's Rector, the Rev. Glenn Jenks says that the sheriff misunderstands the basic drive fueling the illegal imigration,
The drive that brings them here is one of the most basic and powerful drives, and that is for a father to feed his children. And I think a lot of people underestimate that -- they think that if they can just make it a little uncomfortable for them they'll go home. Some will, but the vast majority won't. More will just come. And they'll keep coming and keep coming.But the church has become a flash point for some. Last year, the American Freedom Riders targeted the church program. See a Sonoran News article American Freedom Riders Return. The AFR believes churches and other nonprofit organizations facilitating illegal activity should have their nonprofit charters revoked, which is something the group has discussed pursuing.
From our side as the town's administration, we think the Episcopal Church is one of the best assets in our community.The program has become a "signature ministry" of the church according to its rector who says that goals is letting day laborers "know they're cared for, loved, welcomed and safe. Just the fact that they are here on a daily basis reminds us always of why we're here."
Labels: Episcopal Churches, hospitality
At 10/19/2007 9:16 AM, said…
Wow! Hot topic! I pray that all our responses will remain within the IRENIC realms!
I think there are two questions that we need to ask ourselves as Christians: How would Jesus handle the immigration situation? Is there a middle ground between loyalty to our God and loyalty to our country concerning those in need?
Let's take a look at the story of the laborers in the fields. The workers who worked part of the time were paid the same wages as the workers who labored all day. Is that fair? Is it fair that our ancestors "labored all day" to pay the price for our benefits and that illegal immigrants can come in later and reap the same rewards?
HE says it is. And even with that said, my heart still searches for a middle ground between the Good Shepherd of the Hills Episcopal Church and Sheriff Joe Arpaio.
At 10/19/2007 9:39 AM, said…
Very tough topic with many, many contributing factors.
First, I disagree with the comparison to the laborers in the fields. The issue is not one of being late to our country but one of their right to be here at all. In a free market, companies should be able to hire whomever they want at whatever rate they deem necessary, within the law.
Mexicans are in a tough situation where corruption and incompetence have ruined a good place to live. This drives the people to look for something better.
No problem so far. The US is a country built upon immigration. But our laws covering this are pretty tough and restrictions on the numbers may be too tight. There's a great desire to come here anyway, though, earn some money, have children who automatically become citizens, and take advantage of the people here who have extremely charitable hearts.
There are also plenty of businesses with lots of political power who fight changing the system that exists because it would interrupt their flow of cheap labor.
On the other side are American workers who aren't able to get those jobs and are being punished for following the rules.
In short, there's plenty of responsibility (blame?) to go around for this problem.
I'm a supporter of stronger borders (for this and national security reasons but that's another discussion), punishment of companies who hire illegals, deportation of those who are illegally here, better immigration policies, an amendment to somehow modify automatic citizenship, etc.
The real problem is how to get there from here with the minimum amount of abuse. We are talking about human beings here and they do have a basic right to be treated as such.
At 10/19/2007 2:43 PM, said…
Maybe a smarter idea would be to spend the money the immigrants would earn on items they need and just give it to them, and take the rest to help fill out the proper paperwork to be here legally.
Fair or unfair, the law is the law and the Church, and it's congregation are not above it. They could probably make a bigger statement and change if they'd vote and write letters to their legislators, protest, etc. than breaking the law, not to mention what kind of example they are setting for their members?
Thing is, when you publicly break the law, makes folks wonder what other laws you will break, good intentions or not.
At 10/19/2007 4:11 PM, said…
Actually, the church is not breaking the law by acting as a sanctuary. ANYBODY can take refuge in a church because of this and the law can't touch them. That's why the sheriff has to wait until the immigrants leave the church property before he can apprehend them.
And yes, there are times in history when God's law has been above the law of the land. For example,and this is merely an example, when the Jews found sanctuary in Christian homes when hiding from the Nazis. I would hope that my heart would have told me to harbor a Jew rather than turn him over because it's the law. I believe the church in this story is trying to reach out in God's way.
God's law is perfect in that we treat our neighbors as ourselves. That's why this immigration situation is difficult. There's got to be a solution somewhere that would be fair to all involved.
And, I don't get the difference between buying them things with their wages and allowing them to keep the money they earn. They're still working here illegally. Or, are you saying we should donate? That would be a good thing. It is also a great idea to help them become legal. Maybe the church should spend time initiating this first with these immigrants.
I'm not saying that I'm in agreement with people working here illegally or that I am above the law. I just wonder what the world would really be like if God's law ruled and everyone abided by it.
At 10/19/2007 8:18 PM, said…
I now oppose illegal immigration, somewhat to my surprise. We must make jobs available first to our own country's poor people. The church could provide the same important services to poor Americans who often look in bewilderment at undocumented Hispanics building houses or doing other work in this country. Would it cost employers more to hire Americans? Almost certainly. Would that increase prices for the rest of us? Almost certainly. Do we have a Christian responsibility to fight poverty here? Certainly. I do not wish Mexicans or other Hispanics ill. Not in any way. I support aid to other countries and I would support it to Mexico, Guatemala and other nations whose poorest people risk their lives to move here. Let's not forget our own poorest in the meantime.
At 10/22/2007 9:47 AM, said…
I think everyone who has commented is missing a key piece of information. The reason businesses hire these illegal aliens is because not only are they cheap labor but they are taking jobs that "hardworking Americans" won't deign to take. The truth is, Americans are spoiled; it's hard enough finding Americans willing to work for minimum wage, which, by the way, those employers would have to pay plus benefits(and they don't want to do so).
In addition, paying Americans or legals minimum wage plus benefits would raise the cost of the product. And would Americans pay those prices? We have, much too willingly as far as I'm concerned, paid the ever-increasing gas prices while still driving gas guzzling vehicles. But would we pay twice or three times the amount for an apple?
Most of the world sees us (America) as inordinately selfish and extremely rich. And, compared to a lot of the world, we are. So, why wouldn't immigrants want to flood our shores where making less than minimum wage is still ten times more than they make in their country?
Is there a solution? Not as far as I can see.
2 Comments:
At 10/31/2007 11:10 PM, Anonymous said…
Thank you to everyone for making this year's trunk or treat a GREAT success!! I'm already planning our game for next year and can't wait to see what everyone will come up with for costumes and vehicle decor. It was awesome to see so many new faces and get to know our King of Peace family better. I hope to see some of those new faces in church. I'm so glad King of Peace does this. And it was even better this year because the pre-school joined in the fun and we got the word out to the community that we can have safe fun on halloween with our kids and friends and yes it was even at church :-)
At 11/01/2007 6:52 AM, Anonymous said…
The Flickr' site is very sweet! Frank, at first I thought Paris Hilton, until I noticed the beard!
Amber and Geoff, I think you're my husband's true family! Do you want him back?
Trunk or treat looked like a big success again! It's a 10 plus on the cute-0-meter!
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